All Topics / Finance / The best Structure for me?

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  • Profile photo of AqeelAqeel
    Participant
    @aqeel
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 3

    I am qualified engineer and has got a new job in mines ($ is twice as what I was earning last year).

    I do own my first house which I brought in 2009.

    If I want to buy as many investment properties by myself (quick) and safe. What structure would be best? Bcos from Steve's book I see that 'family trust' has…

    1. Asset protection
    2. Tax minimisation
    3. Borrowing capacity

    My question is, can one person open 'family trust'? Or how is it created? Like what are the steps?

    Cheers and thanks for your help!
    Aqeel

    Profile photo of luke86luke86
    Participant
    @luke86
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 470

    I think you will find that using a trust does not increase borrowing capacity. This has been discussed at length on these forums- Terryw and Richard Taylor might be able to comment more on this.

    As for trusts, anyone can create a trust and there are steps you need to go through. A good tax advisor or acocuntantand a solicitor will be able to help you. Discretionary Trusts with a company as a trustee seem to be the way to go.

    Cheers,
    Luke.

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
    Participant
    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Hi Aquel

    Firstly welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy your time with us.

    Yes certainly I am also a great advocate of Discretionary Family Trust Structures as long as you realise that the negative gearing cannot be cliamed and is closeted within the Trust.

    Of course once the property becomes positively geared this is not an issue and then they start to come into their own.

    Misconception is that Trusts increase your borrowing capacity as this is clearly not the case.

    On any appliation you are required to disclose any other loans to which you are a party and this would include your Guarantee in the capacity as Trustee. 

    Not all lender like DFT / Pty Ltd structures and many of the major banks charge application / legal fees for assessing the deed. Interest rate discounts are not as generous but in saying that it all depends on the lender concerned.

    We deal with many Trust borrowers and have lenders who treat them as a normal application.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

     

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of Alistair PerryAlistair Perry
    Participant
    @aperry
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 891
    Aqeel wrote:
    I am qualified engineer and has got a new job in mines ($ is twice as what I was earning last year).

    I do own my first house which I brought in 2009.

    If I want to buy as many investment properties by myself (quick) and safe. What structure would be best? Bcos from Steve's book I see that 'family trust' has…

    1. Asset protection
    2. Tax minimisation
    3. Borrowing capacity

    My question is, can one person open 'family trust'? Or how is it created? Like what are the steps?

    Cheers and thanks for your help!
    Aqeel

     

    If you are the only potential beneficiary I can't see how a tust would have any tax benefis to you. With this structure you would need to set it up with a coporate trustee, as you can't have a family trust with the one trustee also being the only beneficiary. The use of a corporate trustee would give you a level of asset protection, but increases costs and reduces your lending options when it comes to residential finance.

    The one area where I disagree with the above comments is in the area of servicing. It is true you will not get any assistance with servicing in the short term. But there is potential to have lenders assess only net profit from a trust in future, rather than puting the individual properties and debts into their calculator. It used to be pretty easy to get some lenders to do this and it had a marked affect on borrowing capacity, it is much more difficult at the moment although we have been able to get lenders to assess this way a few timnes recently. Regardless you would need at least 2 tax returns showing profits from the entity.

    Regards
    Alistair

    Profile photo of AqeelAqeel
    Participant
    @aqeel
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 3

    Thanks everyone!

    Qlds007 you have mentioned that …"negative gearing cannot be cliamed and is closeted within the Trust".

    What does this mean? That negative gearing is not an option?

    Cheers!

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    APerry wrote:
    Aqeel wrote:
    I am qualified engineer and has got a new job in mines ($ is twice as what I was earning last year).

    I do own my first house which I brought in 2009.

    If I want to buy as many investment properties by myself (quick) and safe. What structure would be best? Bcos from Steve's book I see that 'family trust' has…

    1. Asset protection
    2. Tax minimisation
    3. Borrowing capacity

    My question is, can one person open 'family trust'? Or how is it created? Like what are the steps?

    Cheers and thanks for your help!
    Aqeel

     

    If you are the only potential beneficiary I can't see how a tust would have any tax benefis to you. With this structure you would need to set it up with a coporate trustee, as you can't have a family trust with the one trustee also being the only beneficiary. The use of a corporate trustee would give you a level of asset protection, but increases costs and reduces your lending options when it comes to residential finance.

     Regards
    Alistair

    I have to disagree with Alistair.

    Even a single person can obtain tax benefits of using a discretionary trust – 2 ways at least:
    – By setting up a company as beneficiary and capping the tax at 30% (this can usually be done later).
    – By having future family members come into existence and become beneficiaries – spouses, children, mistresses (in that order).

    And although you cannot have a trust with the beneficiary the same as the trustee (you can't hold assets on trust for yourself) you can have a trust with yourself as trustee and a whole range of family beneficiaries – eg future spouses, children, grandchildren, step children etc.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    Aqeel wrote:
    Thanks everyone!

    Qlds007 you have mentioned that …"negative gearing cannot be cliamed and is closeted within the Trust".

    What does this mean? That negative gearing is not an option?

    Cheers!

    A trust is a separate tax payer. So if there is a loss it cannot be offset against your personal income.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of AqeelAqeel
    Participant
    @aqeel
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 3

    Cool…!

    Thanks Terryw! it makes sense now!

    I guess Individual structure is the only option for me at the moment!

    Cheers.

    Profile photo of michaelandre70michaelandre70
    Member
    @michaelandre70
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 34

    I also had similar type of query. Thanks to you all for taking time to provide with the information.

    Profile photo of Alistair PerryAlistair Perry
    Participant
    @aperry
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 891
    Terryw wrote:
    APerry wrote:
    Aqeel wrote:
    I am qualified engineer and has got a new job in mines ($ is twice as what I was earning last year).

    I do own my first house which I brought in 2009.

    If I want to buy as many investment properties by myself (quick) and safe. What structure would be best? Bcos from Steve's book I see that 'family trust' has…

    1. Asset protection
    2. Tax minimisation
    3. Borrowing capacity

    My question is, can one person open 'family trust'? Or how is it created? Like what are the steps?

    Cheers and thanks for your help!
    Aqeel

     

    If you are the only potential beneficiary I can't see how a tust would have any tax benefis to you. With this structure you would need to set it up with a coporate trustee, as you can't have a family trust with the one trustee also being the only beneficiary. The use of a corporate trustee would give you a level of asset protection, but increases costs and reduces your lending options when it comes to residential finance.

     Regards
    Alistair

    I have to disagree with Alistair.

    Even a single person can obtain tax benefits of using a discretionary trust – 2 ways at least:
    – By setting up a company as beneficiary and capping the tax at 30% (this can usually be done later).
    – By having future family members come into existence and become beneficiaries – spouses, children, mistresses (in that order).

    And although you cannot have a trust with the beneficiary the same as the trustee (you can't hold assets on trust for yourself) you can have a trust with yourself as trustee and a whole range of family beneficiaries – eg future spouses, children, grandchildren, step children etc.

    There has to be net income to distribute before it can be used. As this is unlikely at first and there seem to be no current beneficiaries it is pretty debatable whether a structure is warrented or not. I wouldn't bother, I'd ratgher use the short term tax benefits and savings on expenses, but can also see why some people would choose to use a trust in this situation.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    APerry wrote:

    There has to be net income to distribute before it can be used. As this is unlikely at first and there seem to be no current beneficiaries it is pretty debatable whether a structure is warrented or not. I wouldn't bother, I'd ratgher use the short term tax benefits and savings on expenses, but can also see why some people would choose to use a trust in this situation.

    Yes, I can agree with that, but the long term benefits of using a trust may outweigh the short term disadvantages of not being able to claim the losses.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of 4jojo4jojo
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    @4jojo
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 18

    Hi,

    I have 2 questions.

    1.  If you set up family trust with corporate trustee, is that the same thing as setting up a family trust and a company?

    2.  If you set up a family trust, as a wage earner (not self employed), can this wage/salary somehow go into the trust?

    Thanks in advance.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    4jojo wrote:
    Hi,

    I have 2 questions.

    1.  If you set up family trust with corporate trustee, is that the same thing as setting up a family trust and a company?

    2.  If you set up a family trust, as a wage earner (not self employed), can this wage/salary somehow go into the trust?

    Thanks in advance.

    I have 2 answers:
    1. Could be the same, but maybe different. eg. you could set up a trust and a company which has no capacity in relation to the trust. ie the company could be trustee, or it could be operating in its own right.

    2. It is possible, but many hurdles to overcome. First one is that your employer will have to make you a contractor, others are tax related.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of tmcampbelltmcampbell
    Member
    @tmcampbell
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 2

    Does anyone know of a good resource I can get hold of to learn about trust structures?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Try http://www.trustmagic.com.au a book by an aust accountant. This is the best general intro out. There are heaps of legal books out there too.

    Another good one, but more advanced is the "trust structures guide" – very expensive though

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of tmcampbelltmcampbell
    Member
    @tmcampbell
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 2
    Terryw wrote:
    Try http://www.trustmagic.com.au a book by an aust accountant. This is the best general intro out. There are heaps of legal books out there too.

    Another good one, but more advanced is the "trust structures guide" – very expensive though

    Thanks heaps Terryw! Your a champ.

    Profile photo of Matt13Matt13
    Member
    @matt13
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 1

    Am I mistaken in thinking that in a family trust (Discretionary) that I as trustee cannot nominate myself as one of the potential beneficiaries along with my spouse, children, grandchildren?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Yes, this is not the case. A trustee can be a beneficiary, just not the only beneficiary.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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