All Topics / Help Needed! / Can you judge growth to come?

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  • Profile photo of Blank FrankBlank Frank
    Participant
    @blank-frank
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 22

    Dear Posters

    I have been learning from the pages here about…Thanks :-)

    Now about to buy a strata one level unit off plan @ 368K in Maddington, Eastern Suburbs of Perth. My first.

    The sales in the area make it hard to assess growth potential…Boom in 2006 and 2007, then losses, now sluggish. Median prices still below 2008 prices.

    Capital Growth In Unit Median Prices in Maddington:
    2007: +21.4%
    2008: +29.9%
    2009: -15.8%
    2010: +5.8%
    2011: +5.8%

    Firstly, sale price: is it calc’d for YE08 or Calendar year 2008?

    Do these figures say anything? I am aware that population actually dropped in the area 2000-2006. How we judge growth in these times?

    Profile photo of xdrewxdrew
    Participant
    @xdrew
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 479

    There is a wonderful little disclaimer that most developers and investment houses stick on their advertisements. It reads like this.

    Past performance is not an indicator of future growth. Consult your investment advisor for more details.

    Reason why? The future is gloriously unpredictable. And the best you will ever get to go on .. is the overlying trends. So if you see shops closing down .. for lease signs everywhere .. dirty streets .. long grass, broken fences … rubbish on the front lawn .. its usually a sign that things are bad. HOWEVER, swinging for an upside is also hard. If you are buying in an area thats losing population (go for a 10yr or 5yr movement more than a short 3yr movement .. trends are never a good guide) you are  asking for trouble, since there will be more dwellings and less people demanding them.

    The magic word here is still TRENDS. I am aware of one suburb that moved up and down for a period of six years based on a certain restaurant that was top notch in the vicinity. The best thing to validate your prospective purchase is look for multiple trends that will be improving the attractiveness of your property. New homebuyers, more developments, better shops, good shopping centres, cleaner streets, and good councils are all things you look for. Oh yes .. dont forget the good restaurants.

    Profile photo of Blank FrankBlank Frank
    Participant
    @blank-frank
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 22

    Cheers, xdrew.

    It is a low soc-ec area, but there is money going in…a Big Box mall is now there, very nearby: Coles, Woolies and sundry stores ++ , but nothing flash in the fit out. Business looks quiet in there.

    Profile photo of Andrew_AAndrew_A
    Participant
    @andrew_a
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 392

    Those figures look like they might be unreliable for judging real growth, medians can be very volatile, much better to look into direct resales and see how they have fared. There are also housing index providers that do a good job, I don't pay attention to median data mostly.

    Generally I would say that Perth has to be looking interesting at the moment on a national scale due just to it's extended flat period.

    My top 3 capitals for 2011-2012 in no particular order would be Brisbane, Sydney & Perth.

    Profile photo of Blank FrankBlank Frank
    Participant
    @blank-frank
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 22
    Andrew_A wrote:
    Those figures look like they might be unreliable for judging real growth, medians can be very volatile, much better to look into direct resales and see how they have fared. There are also housing index providers that do a good job, I don't pay attention to median data mostly.

    Generally I would say that Perth has to be looking interesting at the moment on a national scale due just to it's extended flat period.

    My top 3 capitals for 2011-2012 in no particular order would be Brisbane, Sydney & Perth.

    Still Brisbane? Dependent on area / elevation?

    Profile photo of Kent CliffeKent Cliffe
    Participant
    @kent-cliffe
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 110

    Hi Frank,

    Past result and statistics should always be questioned. This is especially the case with median house prices. A few reason why median prices can be skewed include:

    1) Subdividing large parcels of land into smaller blocks can cause the "median" prices to drop, but per sqr mtr prices to increase.
    2) An increase in new units can skew median prices upwards.
    3) The introduction of government grants (FHOG) caused volumes of cheaper properties to increase. This caused drops in median even though more expensive properties above the threshold were still selling at the same price.
    4) Medians mathmatically always have an upward bias.

    I wouldn't want to comment specifically on Maddington as we don't buy in that area. My tip when selecting invesment property, always use factors other the previous median results to make your selection. These include but not limited to, future supply, public "crowding in", transport, demographic changes and compre it with other invstmets in other suburbs (opportunity cost).

    Profile photo of xdrewxdrew
    Participant
    @xdrew
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 479
    Blank Frank wrote:
    Cheers, xdrew. It is a low soc-ec area, but there is money going in…a Big Box mall is now there, very nearby: Coles, Woolies and sundry stores ++ , but nothing flash in the fit out. Business looks quiet in there.

    I had a choice of investing in an area with an immigrant issue. The area was Lakemba. At that time the 2br Units were at 120k (dont you wish you could time travel now?) and there were heaps on the market. I took a serious look at the couple of properties that were advertised and i decided against it. MOST of the properties not only had safety screens across the doors .. they had window locks and some even had BARS. They have gone up substantially in the meantime (would 260-280k surprise you?) but i wouldnt touch them with a barge pole EVEN now. My tenants need to feel safe .. secure .. and i need to be able to retrieve my rents without someone complaining that i dont share his religion and wont pay. The rents are still good (above avg at 6%) but the downside is too great.

    There are two things with a low soc-ec area. First .. if they own the properties .. they dont add much to them, they cant. Hence there is no way to create an upside. Second, if they rent them .. they arent usually the best tenants. Its a generalising but time and again .. it proves true. What you are out there looking for is areas that are running ahead to having a better grade of home owners in the area. This is usually a lower middle class area. Simply because, they will respect the property .. and as tenants .. you have a better chance of getting a good one. Lower middle class dont want to have to move .. they will respect the property better. Besides .. a lot of lower middle class make the jump and become middle class. This also means they are prepared to pay more for homes in the surrounding area of their existing home (family .. offspring). THIS is what will push your house prices up.

    Also beware cul-de-sacs. This is suburbs that dont lead anywhere .. dont have much transport to get anywhere and have people who cant afford to go anywhere else. I believe Cranbourne is heading that way.

    Profile photo of Blank FrankBlank Frank
    Participant
    @blank-frank
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 22
    Kent Cliffe wrote:
    Hi Frank,

    Past result and statistics should always be questioned. This is especially the case with median house prices. A few reason why median prices can be skewed include:

    1) Subdividing large parcels of land into smaller blocks can cause the "median" prices to drop, but per sqr mtr prices to increase.
    2) An increase in new units can skew median prices upwards.
    3) The introduction of government grants (FHOG) caused volumes of cheaper properties to increase. This caused drops in median even though more expensive properties above the threshold were still selling at the same price.
    4) Medians mathmatically always have an upward bias.

    I wouldn't want to comment specifically on Maddington as we don't buy in that area. My tip when selecting invesment property, always use factors other the previous median results to make your selection. These include but not limited to, future supply, public "crowding in", transport, demographic changes and compre it with other invstmets in other suburbs (opportunity cost).

    Hmm, I see.

    How can I detect Future Supply and changing demographics? Statistics from official sources seem to always be at least two years behind or more.

    Transport I did check = good.

    What is public ‘crowding in’?

    Profile photo of Blank FrankBlank Frank
    Participant
    @blank-frank
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 22
    xdrew wrote:

    I had a choice of investing in an area with an immigrant issue. The area was Lakemba. At that time the 2br Units were at 120k (dont you wish you could time travel now?) and there were heaps on the market. I took a serious look at the couple of properties that were advertised and i decided against it. MOST of the properties not only had safety screens across the doors .. they had window locks and some even had BARS. They have gone up substantially in the meantime (would 260-280k surprise you?) but i wouldnt touch them with a barge pole EVEN now.

    There are two things with a low soc-ec area. First .. if they own the properties .. they dont add much to them, they cant. Hence there is no way to create an upside. Second, if they rent them .. they arent usually the best tenants. Its a generalising but time and again .. it proves true.

    What you are out there looking for is areas that are running ahead to having a better grade of home owners in the area. This is usually a lower middle class area. Simply because, they will respect the property .. and as tenants .. you have a better chance of getting a good one. Lower middle class dont want to have to move .. they will respect the property better. Besides .. a lot of lower middle class make the jump and become middle class. This also means they are prepared to pay more for homes in the surrounding area of their existing home (family .. offspring). THIS is what will push your house prices up.

    Also beware cul-de-sacs. This is suburbs that dont lead anywhere .. dont have much transport to get anywhere and have people who cant afford to go anywhere else. I believe Cranbourne is heading that way.

    How long did they take to move from 120K to 260K?

    I get what you are saying re the aspirations of the suburb.

    I know of something coming up, in a suburb like that. Unfortunately, they are only going to have a one-car garage and the transport is only by bus. And oddly, the buses don’t really nail the vital services (schools and nearest biggest shopping centre). Typical.

    This is frustrating…but will the tenant spot it as a problem or mind it ? You could drive to most of these facilities in 5 mins, which might be nothing to someone moving from the outer suburban limit.

    Profile photo of Kent CliffeKent Cliffe
    Participant
    @kent-cliffe
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 110

    A lot of this stuff comes from understanding areas in detail and studying them over a period of time. For future supply two of a many areas we look to include forewarned zoning changes (what will be built on these sites) and geography (is there land physically available).

    Demographics can be a little harder, because ABS stuff is often out of date. Not that we don't use this. I like driving the area at different times and looking at crime rates put out by WAPOL over time. How will the NRAS properties in Maddington effect your investment long term or where are they all located?

    Now looking at every property in detail like this is too time consuming. To cut down your time I suggest using a top down approach where you will start with a broad Local Government Area and work your way down to streets you are comfortable with. So instead of looking at 15,000 properties in Perth you may be only looking at 200 and find 5 suitable.

    People say, you spend so much time analysing property and making sure it’s a good investment. I stress that even just 1% average more then the market over 10 years on a 400k property is an extra 75k in capital gains. Meaning you can buy more properties sooner.

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