- Hi all,
I'm at my wits end. I have been involved with all this wealth creation seminar stuff for 5 years, done the 21CA, Massland, Nik Hallik, Planet Wealth, etc etc etc. Am I any further ahead? No. I recently learnt some things from no less than 4 former staff members of a particular 'property development' company who teaches people that the vast majority of what the company were saying/claiming was false. Nothing they claimed could (or it appears can) be proven, not the supposedly successful students, the financial worth of the company, the projects, none of it. I even found others in the development industry who flat out will not deal with this person or his company, or his students for that matter. All in all i feel absolutely conned. And when I mentioned this on another board I was threatened with all manner of self important, self righteous vitriol from those trying to protect their own asses. It made me sick to my stomach to see how it went.I have since tried to make a go of things myself but i have to say after all the hard work over the last 18 months, and since finding those things out, my trust and belief in all this 'wealth creation' has hit rock bottom. Are the methodologies valid? Of course. They've existed for decades and are used by institutions every day. Are they as easy, profitable or anywhere near what they are purported to be? Not even close. Can the one man band use them to the extent it has been claimed? I'm beginning to seriously doubt this as well.
I am so tired. I've put in years of effort, lost so much damn money and worse, time, to all these fakers spruikers and outright liars that I am sick to my stomach. I work full time, long hours, am a single Dad who wants nothing more than to spend time with his daughter, and I have tried time and time adn time again to make these things work. I am so damn tired of these people trying to 'upsell' me or get me to sign up to another seminar or mentoring program or some other f***ing plan to part me from my money.. I JUST WANT TO FIND SOMEONE HONEST!!!! Is this too much to ask? Within the wealth creation seminar circuit I'd say it appears as though the answer is yes. As soon as you start asking probing questions about proof and validity all of a sudden 'oh you have the wrong mindset' or ' we dont' want negative people here' or they all scurry for cover and refuse to answer any more questions..
and before anyone says you have to put in time effort etc to make something work, where property options are concerned i've been at this 18 months, nightly, non stop. I'd say that's a fair trial.
where to from here? Can ANYONE make any suggestions or offer any guidance or help. I just want this to work. It has to work. I can't believe i've been conned by everyone for the last 5 years.
Hi Matt,
Yep , I can help if you want. First, a few anecdotes :
– If it sounds too good to be true, it is not true.
– Money never comes easy.
– The only way to make money is to work for it. ( even a scam takes a good amount of work )Judging from your post, I take it you are interested in investing in property. Investing in property is very easy.
First rule : Never borrow more than you can safely pay back. Let's say you earn 50.000 dollars gross a year. That means you should not borrow more than 150.000 dollars to invest in your own property.There's a few ways to make money relatively easy, but like most things, they come at a cost.
I personally bought my first property when I was 20. Ofcourse I didn't have enough money to pay back the mortgage, so I put 3 students in my own home, and I had only 1 room for myself, and had to share the kitchen and the bathroom with 3 other people, and I didn't have much privacy. I lived like this for 6 years, until I earned enough to pay back the mortgage by myself.I suggest that if you want to invest in property, you start with buying your own home first. Buy a cheap home that looks REAL crappy, and divide it in two : Two options :
– Divide it in floors ( townhouse-like )
– Divide it in half ( london-style )Then rent 1 part of the house to someone else ( a starter- worker for instance ). His rent should be paying most of your mortgage. Save some money while doing this.
Once you are comfortable with the payments and are sure you don't get stressed financially, you're ready for your second home.
Go look for a place where YOU would like to live. Buy it, then rent out your previous home : You now have 3 properties ( 2 rented out , and 1 property where you live yourself ).
With the double rent incomes, pay off 30% of your PPOR , then you're well on your way to SAFELY investing in property. After 4-5 years, you can think about buying another property and using the rental incomes and your own income to pay back that property also. Try and buy a big crappy home ( 5 bedrooms ) , and divide it, that way you have 4 renters and 3 physical homes ( yours included ). Alternatively, you can buy a 5 bedroom house close to a university and rent it out to students. Mind you this takes a lot more stress than renting to a working person, BUT.. you earn more with renting out to students, and students generally don't mind living in a dump, as long as it's cheap for them ( 5 students bring in a lot of rental income ).
Well, that's it, this is what I suggest you do. Don't use 'graphs' or 'computer models' or 'software' etc.. just use your own brain to do the maths. Generally , you want to get more rental income than mortgage payments.
If you can't earn enough by renting the property out to 1 guy, then rent it out to 5 students instead, or divide the place and rent it out to 2 workers instead of 1. Noone needs 5 bedrooms ( they think they do but they don't ) AND… you will actually be helping out society by providing more rental properties.Don't spend too much money 'doing the house up'. Just buy it, and rent it out in the state you bought it, unless something is broken, then replace it. Get landlord insurance. For a sample rental contract, just contact a rental company and say you would like to rent a place somewhere : They will provide you with all the contracts you need ( thinking you will sign them and send them back, rather than modifying them for your own use ).
Good luck mate!
hi matt,
i suggest educate your self first for nothing (or very cheaply).
read,read and continue to read, a variety of property investment books, many available at local libraries.
read for ever on forums like this, and even ask for advice or opinions.
you don't have to believe everything you read or hear, but it gives you ideas to follow up, reserch and then come to your own conclusions.
it's a good way to start and feel your self into things.
good luck,
frosty1.
PS they say you can learn from mistakes.
While we are on the band wagon, Is it just me or is life like a hill with an ever increasing gradient ? The harder you try to clime it the steeper it gets.
I'm 21 now and have been working since I was 15 in the construction industry, I used to tell everyone when I was younger I would be successful and buy my own house before I was 20, but then I discovered the magnet of life.
Can someone explain how you are ever ment to pull yourself out of the system that most of us are put in ?
I'm a tradesman plasterer and Instead of wages going up each year they somehow seem to do the opposite, three years ago I could earn $1000 after tax which was quite good, now I earn $650 after tax. Not only that it seems every time you work so hard and long to save that $6-7k up in the bank BANG some kind of disaster hits, like your car blows up or you get sick and have to take a month off work or the fridges stops working…. Everytime you seem to be achieving something, something comes along and sweeps you right off your feet ! and your back at square one again. Now after working flat out for the past seven years in one trade it looks like I have to leave the construction industry all together as I lost my job because of the utter lack of housing being built.
Now im sure I will get the same response as everyone I talk to… "Now look, instead of paying $300 a week rent, buy your own house and it will make you RICH !"
How the hell are you able to buy a house and pay off $600 a week ? I don't care what anyone says, its just impossible.
Are there other people here who feel that we are born into a society of slavery ? a slavery to money ? All people do is work there ass off all there life to maybe one day own a few bricks on 600sq of dirt…
How are you ment to get out of this trap so many people get stuck in ?
Hi Behrendorff.
You describe the current problem, and the reason why I say houseprices will come down. What has happened, is that society USED to take care of their children, they would work hard and leave a better future for their offspring. But the last generation has stolen their offspring's money , their wealth, by pushing houseprices up.
Now, their offspring cannot buy houses anymore, the immigrants come in empty-handed or with very few cash, and unemployment is rising. The fruits of your parent's generation is now becoming clear : By printing the huge amounts of money that they have done ( the banks ), they have removed YOUR part of that money and taken it for themselves.Now, to answer your question as what you can do about it :
Think about this : 99% of the people looking for homes are in your situation : They cannot pay 500.000 for a piece of wood standing on some piece of land. We have reached a limit on what people can pay for housing, and the buyers cannot afford what the sellers NEED to get in order not to get burnt by their mortgage interest repayments. Now, the sellers will be able to hold out for a few months more, after which 1 by 1 they will be foreclosed by their mortgagers. I suggest you just rent somewhere, or buy a caravan and live cheaply for a while until the houseprices come down to sane levels. Do *not* get yourself in debt. Think of it like a standoff between buyers and sellers : I'm sure the buyers will outsit the sellers. The buyers have no choice since they cannot possibly pay back the mortgage, they cannot afford the houses, houses will HAVE to come down to sane levels for the market to pick up again. So , just wait a bit, save money and make sure you have enough money ready for a down payment, also have a job somewhere so you can get a reasonable mortgage when houses become 'available' again. At this moment, there's a HUGE surplus of houses on the market, none sells : There's no buyers who can afford them.Remember : The ones that are in slavery are the ones that have bought houses in the last 3 years.
Remember that the ones that have no mortgage are not the slaves, they are free.
Don't become a slave of the capitalists, wait until the whole system falls apart ( which it is doing now ).
THEN buy a house to LIVE in, not to invest or whatever.Houses are made to live in, they should be bought to live in, not for investment purposes. The government is under huge pressure to solve this problem, more and more people lose their work , lose their homes, and lose their hopes. The government's actions so far have been futile : They have been mainly focused at pushing houseprices further up and trying to keep the bubble going. This has not worked because people stopped buying houses : They cannot afford them. So , the government now will have to come up with another measure : Removing tax benefits and thus making houses less interesting for investors, thus lowering prices overall, and making housing affordable to the normal people again, instead of just the elite investors.
On top of what I have said here, there's a multitude of other problems making this already grave problem worse : Oil prices , unemployment rising , inflation out of control, rising interest rates etc.
It is too late to punish the ones who have stolen your future, but at least things will get back to normal, and the ones left holding the bag will be the ones who bought houses between 2006 and 2009. Anyone who bought a house in those times will get bankrupt, or at least lose a LOT of money ( 20-30 years worth of savings for instance ).
HI Matt,
Just to point out something else – if it was that easy then everyone would be financially free! You have to keep persisting cause one day you'll get there!You're probably about to have a huge breakthrough because you're so fustrated and enough is enough and then you'll have a stroke of brilliance.
Don't give up – you and your family deserve better!
Good luck
its really not as difficult as some might suggest to get on the ladder and start the ball rolling.
above there some really good points although i did just skim it ( alot to read) but can i add and or re iterate.1. forget the spuikers do your own research make your own observations.
2. speak to people who have suceeded and get there view point, hindsight because they will be using this knowledge to make there next move.
3. either buy a cheap investment or if you buy your own place rent out your spare room or rooms (cash in hand)
4. if you buy a home add value as you can afford. (buy an ugly duck and do cheap renos to turn into a swan)
4. borrow what you can afford
5. you will need to make sacrifices probablyno new cars, plasmas, mobiles, designer cloths, expensive restaurants etc.
You cant expect to have a gen Y lifestyle with a baby boomer port folio, it aint gonna happen.
I had 1.5m in property before i upgraded my first bomb car which I drove to the ground and owned for 15 yrs, I bought most of my cloths and furniture from Vinnies (still do sometimes) and spend conservatively….am i glad i lived this way, hell yeah….did i feel i missed out, no way…. do i still spend conservatively…yes it do…its about your priorities…id rather be modest and confortable financially than looking like im flaunting what i cant really afford.6. stay positive, always opportunities out there
7. think laterally (dont follow the herd or if you do have a good reason)
8. remember your choices now arent for ever
9. remember that what you borrow today will seem like nothing in 20-30yrs
10. You dont have to pay off anything so keep it interest only, even on your PPOR, its not about getting into massive debt and having to pay it off, thats old school mentality, money makes money, so the larger you asset base the faster it grows, dont worry so much about the debt. How much money do your reckon large big cheese corporates borrow to finiance themselves…….think of borrowing money as a tool, not a liability. If your assests are growing and you can HOLD ( not pay it off) the debt thats all that matters.
11. you can always extend the life of loans in the future
12. remember capital growth is expidential
13. think long term, what if I dont start today, its only gonna get harder…what if id started 5 or 10yrs ago where would i be today… so where are you gonna be tommorrow.
14. dont make it a chore, make it a hobby, remember you could have far worse interests like smokin crack in an alley.
15. dont get to hard on yourself…. you got plenty of time… you dont have to get from A to B in an afternoon, besides the journey is the best part.For what its worth……
It is possible to get into property at a young age. I did(24 now).
Sure! I was eating noodles for a little bit there, and things werent overly comfortable.
I had to sell my WRX and downgrade to a 1989 soccermums car. But i got there.Affordability is an issue, there is no denying it. But I have the following advice.
Matt007, stop going to seminars….. if you havent found your niche yet from them, im afraid your only going to get further disheartened from here.
Read up on books, Steve Mcknight, Anita Bell just to name a few. Ask anyone here for advice.
Im NOT a mortgage broker, but once your comfortable with basic knowledge about the industry make an appointment, find out how much your repayments would be on certain loans and whether that is affordable for you. then cruise down to auctions, or(if you dare) the buyers agents around the place and get a feel for where you can afford to buy.For both Matt007 & Behrendorff,
if you guys are dead set and want to get into the market……… Maybe your first property should be an investment. Get someone else to pay(rent) most of the loan off for you. This way you arent limited to your local area and are allowed more freedom with selection of properties that may be cheap or up for a bit of capital growth.It will still be hard but possibly worth it. Maybe Behrendorff you can move back in with your parents or friends for a few months and save more cash…. maybe downgrade your car and hold off buying that plasma or PS3.
Event Horizon is on the money, make it a hobby!
Also, some people are predicting bad things for the property market here in Australia, IF they are correct, it may be better to hold off purchasing property.
However, generally speaking if you can afford the property and you really want to get into the market, it is already fast becoming a buyers market. Just dont over-extend yourselves with servicing the loans.Good luck!
Matt007 wrote:I have been involved with all this wealth creation seminar stuff for 5 years, done the 21CA, Massland, Nik Hallik, Planet Wealth, etc etc etc. Am I any further ahead? No.Hi Matt, unless you start your own wealth creation seminars or can come up with some other scam there are no shortcuts to wealth creations.
My suggestion for starters is to stop paying for wealth creation seminars and any other get rich schemes and books out there. "Free" seminars are ok , it may give you new ideas and get to meet and talk to other investors. Just leave your money, cards and cheque book at home if you are easily talked into departing with your money. And don't sign for anything no matter what they offer and how good it sounds. Always remember there is no such thing as a free lunch and they are there to con you into signing up for expensive seminars, sell you s**t you don't need and generally to create wealth for themselves at YOUR expense.
Next suggestion is to read all you can about investing in property and shares, ask for suggestions, opinions and options but at the end of the day its your money you are playing with so make your own decisions. You will have to find your own method that will work for you and the risk you are comfortable with. Never let someone control your money, tell you what to do with your money or influence you in any way, shape or form. And yes that includes whatever you read here.
Good luck.
Matt007
sounds like you are over analysing (5 years?) did you actually started with anything? Pick something , start small and adjust as you go. Personally I think the main risk is doing nothing.Behrendorff
Home ownership may in fact be out of reach for many people. We have had a model were average wage earners could buy a house. We wanted to beleive that would always be the case. In many parts of the world people rent for life, I think that will be the case here. For me the way to progress was through self improvement. I am not a great financial risk taker so I improved/diversified by skills and education. First bought in the 70's when my house was 2-3 times my salary. Currently houses are 2-3 times my salary. If I had stayed in the same trade there would be no way I could have had the finacial backing to get ahead. Others have a different path, just saying what worked for me.
Dear All, thankyou all for your time and the generous responses you have posted thus far. As someone pointed out i've given little to no detail other than venting frustration and disappointment. In that regard I guess misery loves company and I should have provided more info.
the purpose of my post was I guess as much to see if i could find some honest, down to earth and 'real' people rather than these NLP black belt sell you anything types..
Firstly all of you make good points about forgetting seminars and getting out there and doing my own research. I guess in a manner, this is my research, or at least the start of it. I have definitely reached that point, and as someone rightly pointed out, turning a frown upside down i can use the info i did learn in these seminars and put it to use in teh grand scheme of things.Secondly, I have had IPs in the past, one 'wrap' and one buy and hold, both of which I lost thanks to some unfortunate circumstances arising out of a combination of bull put spread trading and a bad choice of employer. I still however have a small unit in Paddington in Brisbane that I share ownership with the bank with..
I am employed full time on a decent salary (thanks to some negotiating in recent times) so probably have reasonable borrowing power for IPs again. I am not adverse to regional investment and have had property in Central Qld previously.
All in all things are NOT bad, but I am despondent about the whole seminar/wealth creation/NLP ninja type circuit in which i've been caught up over the last few years. No longer. I'll have to decide what to do next at this point, but my interest in IP and property developing remains strong and i fully intend to progress both areas and seek a sound mentor/guide if possible as well.
Thanks all again for your kind words and frank input.
Matt.you have a great attitude, the sooner you get away from the phoney money machines and start building for yourself (again) the better. Good luck and keep posting/questioning.
Matt007
If you learnt anything from the get rich quick seminars it should have been to start running your own, print up some pie charts graphs, some nice business cards and just talk a lot of shit even employ an ex realestate agent to help out. Mate most of these things are run my sales people not academics. The money you spent could have been put to a Degree in Business (Financial management) or a similar TAFE course. If these people can tell you how to get rich, they wound n't. Learn some finacial analisit skills, modles and how to use them. Learn how to use a spread sheet. Yes its a pain but mate knowledge is not a hard thing to carry round. And it soon puts the bull shiter back in place when you can talk the languge better than them and even correct them beleive me they dont like it. Confidence and trust in your ability is importain. No easy way to make money, on honestly anyway. I waist a lot of time on apprasing investments. But its not a waist of time it will save you in the long run.
I had an accounting lecturer at Uni that once said to me " persevirance always pays off" her drove a new BMW, had an incredable sexy wife and a great house and was a realy nice guy. So I guess the moral of the story is keep you money, keep away from the snake oil sales people, educate yourself and do your own home work.
Cheers all the best.
Tony….
Thanks Matt007 for the post it's a rare one and genuine!
Take youself back and have a little rest then get restored and don't think about things to much. Then when you find that honest person it will be all worth it.
Hi Matt
I agree with the most of the above posters – DON'T attend any more seminars. Read library books, get yourself a decent broker. Richard (QLD007) from this forum sounds pretty good if you are in QLD, I think he even helps people in other states. Seminars are OK to get you going, but after so many if you are feeling disheartened, give them a miss. Positive books are good, and cost very little (especially from Library).
Hi,
just wanted to respond to some of the responses here – for better or worse, my first property option/development is a 20Ha industrial site in north qld, in amongst all the mining activity and the Abbot Point Coal Terminal. Given the current industrial prices in Townsville( this is just south of there), the availability of industrial land (virtually none), the infrastructure spending and mining activity in the region, I do believe it to be in a good location.So I guess you could say in for a penny in for a shedload of land. I recognise the small steps first idea, and under perhaps different circumstances would've taken that approach. That said, I have what I have and intend to do my utmost to make it work.
Its one helluva introduction to the whole game but i've learnt a lot throughout the process thus far, and now I have two goals, both are acceptable regardless of the direction:
a) is to sell the option and yes it's on the market via a few agents,
b) seek out a possible JV partner to do the DA for a profit split, if possible.So, while I readily accept and recognise the many posts about start small, save this do that, my current situation is now what it is, and I intend to do whatever is within my sphere of influence to get the desired outcome, which is of course to sell it at the right price. I had considered seeking out more properties to work with, but I think I am better served making this one work first, then focussing on expanding.
Thanks
Matt.Thanks for your reply,
Matt.PS that may answer the questions about 'what's in it for a coach'. I'll happily JV something so I can learn and share the profit. More than that I won't discuss in an open forum. No offence.
Hi Everyone,
There is some good advice in the above postings. It isn't an easy path, and the more low-cost reading and self education you can do the better. It is also important that you look at your own psychology of wealth. What are your real beliefs about wealth and money? Are you truly comfortable with the idea of being wealthy? If these things are out of alignment with your stated goals, then you will fall down every time. Doing my own personal growth in these areas has been just as important, if not more so, than the learning I have gained about property investment. At the risk of promoting yet another 'guru', I have learnt heaps from listening to and reading material by Bill Zheng from the mortgage broker Investors Direct in Victoria, as he is particularly strong on this psychology angle. The other important learnings have been to get in and get my hands dirty by actually investing. Sometimes it has gone wrong, other times it has been great. Regardless, every investing experience, particularly the not so good ones, has been something I have learnt heaps from.
Good luck with it. Keep trying and don't give up even when the going is tough.
JKMTTo All frustrated Investors. There are always ways to make money regardless. You just have to find the way to do.
If your here to make money and more cash flow and cant find a way to do it you need to do something important.
Think outside the Square.
Savings, Stocks, Options, Warrants, Property, Development, Land, New Business, Web based Business, Mentoring, Extra after hours work, Online surveys, Education. There are ways to make $$. If properties are out of reach maybe now is a time to find other sources to save up for your deposit.
Adrian Cahill | AdrianCahill.com Personal Development Expert
http://adriancahill.com/from-investor-to-coach/
Email Me | Phone MeHere since 2002, however things have evolved over the years.
Hi Matt,
Keep on it buddy, you'll get there. The only way to do something is to do it yourself, and learn from your mistakes! Read, read, read and talk to as many people in the property industry as you can (bar those selling seminars or buckets loads of off the plan arrangements).
But, If you really want to learn about property from an 'expert' or so these spruikers call themselves, you should be learning from an institution such as a university or TAFE program who are focused on learning and providing ongoing support for their students – not selling them crap. If you're in Sydney I have come across a TAFE associated course, 'The Property School' who are fantastic. All teachers are property nvestors themselves (which means they have your direct interest at heart as they've been through it themselves) and they come from different areas of the property world: finance, tax, accountant, property, renovation, valuer industries. The course is based around (and associated with) the TAFE South Australia property course, to ensure all you're getting is educated – no gimmicks! Alternatively TAFE Qld have a similar course, so do TAFE SA, and Victoria Uni.
Although, as I said earlier, the best way to learn is to teach yourself. Read, watch, listen, learn and develop your skills in researching, identifying properties (good and bad investments), buying and selling, arranging finance and identifying trustworthy professionals (brokers, accountants, financial advisors, buyer's agents) to help you along your journey. Buyers agents can also help the first time around!
Now, go on and give it another go!Hi Matt
Giving up cannot be an option, NEVER GIVE UP.
I have been trying to buy my 1st PI for the past 4 years, after attending seminars, reading umpteen number of books. In the last four years I have gone through lot of tough times as well, from closing down my business in 2006, paid off all my credit cards and other loans, was debt free well almost, to being unemployed for a period of 12 months and my mother being diagnosed with Bone cancer last year and then within 6 months another cancerous tumor appeared in her liver, hence my sister decided to get married sooner than later that too in India which was another expense for my family. Though most of the wedding expenses was borne by my elder brother almost to the tune $200,000 but I still need to pay of my share of the expenses. Travel expenses to India was another killer, cause it was a last minute decision nothing was planned and no money was put aside. Me and my Wife had to take a months leave for the wedding. Got back from India 2 days after that met with a car accident a 5 car pile up, car was written off, as there were no savings had to buy a another car on loan to commute to work, which was another expense. Till this date I have not given up, I keep looking for different ways, how to make money from RE, and I did get bogged down when I didnt have a Job and my credit debt started to go up, and decided to let go of my dreams and go with the flow, 5 people were living on 1 income with no GOVT support, as I dont feel comfortable taking money from the govt for my day to day living, well just one of my principals, there are more people out there who needs it more than I do.
But what ever has happened I have not given up, a family member had promised me $30,000 as loan (payable when able) to kick start my PI goals, but that never materialised, I still make a point to send out emails to my family members and some times friends whenever I identify a property which has some potential to make money, asking for a loan or a JV, most of the time I dont get any reply at all, that hasnt stopepd me either, " If you dont ask, you wouldnt know". After a lot of contemplation last month i decided to subscribe to API and the information is worth every dollar spent. I inspect every property which I think can make some money and get me closer to my investment GOALS. I have also heard from external sources that the company I am working for is closing down its NSW operations and hence will have to look for a new job in the next couple of months.
I think I am missing a link some where, and I am trying to figure out how and where to find it to kick start my PI goals,
Please don't give up.
Regards
Ashish" If you are not in, you are out"
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