Pasted below is an email I sent to the Jenman website in response to an article I read on the website…
To the Jenman Crew,
Firstly, I would like to make it clear that I believe there are a lot of unscrupulous operators participating in ‘wraps’. I also believe this to be true in most industries – especially real estate. For example – I firmly believe that it is criminal to advise a client regarding one method of selling property and discounting all others. Auctions have their place as does private treaty sales.
The following relates to the article that appears on your website at http://www.jenman.com.au/NewsStories1.php?id=94
I am interested to know if anyone else interpreted the article ‘WRAP HOME LOANS – We just can’t keep up with the payments’ in the same way I did. I was rather intrigued by the following:
“After 18 months we decided to refinance adding in the home loan and the car loan to make things easier. We had to borrow $135,000 to get away from the wrapper and to pay our other loans.
Today, the interest rate is almost 12% and we can not keep the payments up to date. We need $144,000 just to get out with nothing.â€
The couple in that article stated they bought the property for $117,000 while the wrapper bought it for $100,000. The exert pasted above demonstrates that 18 months later, they refinanced the wrap and were able to obtain $135,000 in borrowings.
I am a mortgage adviser and thought of the following:
1. This couple or the property would not meet the strict mortgage insurance guidelines so they would be restricted to borrowing 80% of the property value
2. The security value would have to be at least $168,750 to borrow $135,000 at 80% of the property value
3. They used a terrible lender or mortgage broker to be involved with a product that attracted an interest rate of 12%
Please explain the following to me:
“Things were great†according to the couple while they were both working but things got tough when one of them fell over and fractured their spine.
· How would the difficulty be different if the loan was done through a standard lender from the start?
· How is the wrapper responsible for a fractured spine?
· Why did the couple not have health cover or income protection?
· Is their lack of insurance cover the wrappers fault also?
· Didn’t their ability to refinance the loan to $135,000 mean they benefited from a huge increase in equity in a short period of 18 months?
· Is it the wrappers fault they were stupid enough to take a loan at 12%?
· Where does the duty of the wrapper / vendor end with you?
I consider this article to be in support of wrappers but it does clearly demonstrate the stupidity of some people and their inability to take responsibility for their own stupid mistakes. If anything, they got a bargain securing a property for $117,000 when it was worth at least $168,750 only 18 months later. Do these people also expect the wrapper to make their loan repayments after they have paid out the house and gone with another lender? Give us a break!
I look forward to your response.
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage Adviser0414 347 771
[email protected]
http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter – Click Here
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty LtdRob,
You raise some interesting points, some of which I had also considered… especially the part about refinancing the wrap loan.
Should the wrapper have provided those extra funds, I would suggest that they have left themselves open for abuse. However, being aware of the people behind the deal, I doubt this is the case.
The story as presented on the website is quite vague, short on facts and very opinionated. I would like to know how much of the $135k needed to refinance related to the wrap loan payout, and how much related to the other capitalised debts.
As for the author of the article (who is not sourced), I suggest that they urgently seek the help of Mr Jenman, since Mr Jenman has said that he aspires to conduct research that is thorough and accurate – scarce editorial commodities that are sadly lacking in the current offering.
Please advise if you receive a reply.
Regards,
Steve McKnight
**********
Remember that success comes from doing things differently.
**********Steve McKnight | PropertyInvesting.com Pty Ltd | CEO
https://www.propertyinvesting.comSuccess comes from doing things differently
No problem Steve. I will email it to you AND post it here.
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage Adviser
http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter – Click Here
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty LtdUPDATE!
From: David Reardon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 9:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Contact from http://www.jenman.com.au/NewsStories1.php?id=94Dear Bou (sic)
The piece you refer to is NOT an article, but a story written by a consumer. It carries a clear heading – “STORIES†marked in BOLD CAPITALS.
In your haste to protect wrappers, it seems you have overlooked this central point.
To refer to battlers who are losing their family homes as “stupid†is, in my opinion, deplorable.
I counselled the woman who was first lured into this mess. She is not stupid. Like so many others, she is a decent woman who was conned by one of the many loan sharks who have attended those get-rich seminars and have now been turned loose on the community to prey on battlers and exploit them under the guise of being heroes offering “win-win†deals.
No one else has “interpreted†the story in a manner that resembles your interpretation. Indeed, there has been an outpouring of both condemnation for the wrappers and compassion for the victim.
The complete absence of care and the callous tone in your message surprised me, especially from someone who purports to be a professional business person. When I visited your web site and, behind the cartoons, saw your link to one of the country’s biggest wrap spruikers, it all made sense.
Sincerely
David Reardon
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage Adviser
http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter – Click Here
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty LtdHere is my reply…
From: Robert Bou-Hamdan [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 9:48 PM
To: ‘David Reardon’
Subject: RE: Contact from http://www.jenman.com.au/NewsStories1.php?id=94It must be a pre-requisite to work for Mr Jenman to only operate with one eye open.
To address your email point by point (as I hoped you would show me the courtesy of doing instead of ignoring all the content):
· I apologise for using the word ‘Article’. I am fully aware this was a story sent you and reprinted onto your website in an attempt to promote your cause. In my opinion, this is now an article as it is on a commercial site. I do not intend to make this the issue of my email as you seem to have done.
· It is then quite interesting that you jumped from talking about something that is meaningless (ie: the ‘Article’ comments) to the very end of the email where I commented on ‘stupidity of some people’ and people taking responsibility for ‘their own stupid mistakes’. How about you now go back and address and respond to all the comments and questions in between. I am satisfied that you think I am ‘deplorable’.
· Now we jump back to you counseling someone who was ‘lured’ into a mess. I would be interested to hear your qualifications to counsel anybody as it seems apparent from your response that you find it difficult to pick up on key issues and address them accordingly. This is an important trait for a qualified counselor. How were these people ‘lured’ into something? They are grown adults and made their own choice. As far as I am concerned, they made a great choice and benefited enormously from their capital gains and their issue is with the lender charging them 12%. I would hazard a guess at the reason behind you still targeting the wrapper is because it attracts more media attention. Read my initial email (as it seems clear you have not done so) and you might understand where I am coming from with this Mr Counselor.
· A quick note, ‘decency’ has NOTHING to do with ‘stupidity’. I will put it in a sentence for you – I am sure you are a DECENT guy but unfortunately you seem blinded by your own STUPIDTY. (Notice the BOLD CAPITALS!)
· Regarding the ‘seminars’, there are good ones and bad ones. At least I can admit this. The point of the matter is that the people involved were all adults and no-one had the thumb stuck in a vice to sign contracts. It looks to me like the wrapper and the buyer both won in this deal. Again, I draw your attention to the issue being with the lender charging these people 12%. AFTER they refinanced. (There are those BOLD CAPITALS again).
· No-one else may have “interpreted†the story as I have because it seems your following is a group of weak-minded individuals sucked in by a ‘Doom & Gloom’ story and they cannot read between the lines. Not so long ago, Aboriginals suffered segregation because the majority thought it was right. I must ask you, does that still occur today? There will always be someone who sees things differently and it seems that you discard those people who do not bow to your preachings. I would guess that you are just one of the many ‘Jenman Puppets’.
· Using the word “victim†can be very powerful. Boo Hoo!!! Please send me a Kleenex! I am so distraught that these “victims†made more than 50% capital gain on a property investment in 18 months! BOO HOO! (You know it – BOLD CAPITALS!)
· Attacking my personality from words in an email will not win you any brownie points. It just demonstrates your inability to read things as they are and your intent to twist things towards doom and gloom. You can insult me all you like and it will not change my view that these people made money on this transaction and are whinging for nothing.
· I notice you mentioned a link to PropertyInvesting.com on my website and implied that it was the reason for how you interpreted my words. Let me assure you that Steve and I have huge differences of opinion and I have even been banned from his site for many months this year for airing my opinions. My opinions and my words are my own and are not endorsed by anyone else nor do I seek endorsement or support from anyone else.
Just a final word before you go back and read the initial email which you clearly did not do before answering me, I have never sold a property under a wrap in my life and I am more inclined to go with lease options over wrapping. However, I do not discount it altogether as I believe wraps have their place as do AUCTIONS.
I draw your attention to the first paragraph of my first email Mr Counselor. I would appreciate a proper, more educated and informed response to my whole email from you in the future instead of trying to pick out some negatives. I would appreciate you not responding to me further with insults by email if that is all you have in you. Hopefully we can get this exchange back on track and more civil.
I look forward to a PROPER response!
Kind regards,
Robert Bou-Hamdan JP, SIA (Aff.), Dip. Mortgage Lending
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage Adviser
http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter – Click Here
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty LtdIn case you guys missed it, the emails have lost a lot of formatting when I pasted them here. There were a lot of BOLD CAPITALS!
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage Adviser
http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter – Click Here
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty LtdWOO HOO – GO ROB GO !!!!!
( not the BOLD letters !!!! ) DOH !!!! LMAO !!!!
How does the old saying go. if you feed someone sh## someone long enough and tell em it’s chocolate… sooner or later they will believe…..
Thanks for your objective review of the “STORY” so… if it’s a story… does that mean it is FICTION ???? an interesting thought…..
Cheers
Jenman is nothing more than a scam that has got out of hand.
I have tried dealing with them as an agent and I have to say, I feel sorry for the sellers as from my experiences, their agents are so desperate to sell to make their commissions, you usually get a CHEAP PRICE (note the bolds) on any property they have listed.
Byronent
Adelaide SAYou know my folks always said, “if you haven’t got anything nice to say, then keep your mouth shut”
Mr. Jenman….. Time to follow that…..
It seems he’s only interested in stories to portray him as the messiah… who can help all…. and only his way is the right way…… and in the meantime, MAKE A LOT OF MONEY…….
Jenman always goes on about people like wrappers making money off the poor and out of luck folks out there….. he does the same…..
It’s sad that probably he does do some good out there, but the endless, one sided, and sometimes fictional promotion of self has done a lot of damage…..
So called “ethical” companies do not act in such a way……
Good work Rob!!!!
It IS time for Mr Jenman and followers to be as accountable for what they write, as they demand from others, rather than some of the totally emotive propoganda that spews forth from http://www.jenman.com.au
A lot of wrappers on this site are noteworthy (pelican and FW are a couple that come immediatly to mind) for a high ethical standards…and, not withstanding some concerns about wrapping, that shouldn’t go without recognition from the likes of Jenman and crew.
Looking forward to further updates.
Cheers
Thanks for the kind words Wayne.
I’m sure my turn will come to be on the receiving end. I’ve copped that sort of stuff before, and probably will again.
Yes, it’s upsetting to be accused of stuff that’s nothing like what I actually do, and I’m sure there are people in other lines of business who feel the same way (used car salesmen? hehe).
In the end, though, when it gets me down, I sit down, look at a list of my wrap properties, and one by one I think about the families in those homes. I think about the things THEY say, because in the end, they’re my customers and if they’re happy, does it really matter if people who know nothing say a whole load of garbage?
Even more importantly, I think about some of the first people I wrapped homes to, who have now refinanced and moved on. I’d blush if I repeated some of their comments of gratitude here.
I’m as keen as anyone to remove the ratbags from the industry. Once, just once, I’d like to see a POSITIVE article about wrapping, quoting people who’ve done this and been successful. There’s so many of them out there, and yet you never hear their side of the story. API came close, and then pulled the pin on the story.
I’d also like to see pigs fly, I guess…. heheheheKeep smiling
FelicityHi Rob and FW,
I too have some very happy wrap clients. They and their families would still be renting now if not for this process. They have all made considerable capital gains on their homes while still allowing me to achieve a reasonable profit and keep well ahead on the mortgage payments.
I have not had to advertise or look for clients as any new clients that come my way are usually referred from my very satisfied existing clients.
I used to have quite a bit of respect for Neil Jenman and his ideas, especially from his first book, but I am rather disappointed in the direction his organisation appears to be going. I saw an extremely biased television item a couple of days ago, painting all wrappers in a bad light. My daughter took great delight in getting me to watch it.
While I have had great success with wraps I have done so far, it is becoming an uphill battle fighting all the ignorance out there. I am shifting my focus more towards lease options now which can also provide ethical win – win outcomes and seem to have a far broader acceptance with the legal and financial institutions.
Kind regards and Best wishes everybody for a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year
Grae1
“The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents and the oceans, was not ignorance, it was the illusion of knowledge.”
– Daniel BoorstinWhy not get FW and Grae1 and Pelican to contact ACA or Today Tonight, (Rob I think you can swing this you stirrer), and get them to run a story that would show up Jenman.
Consider it, Wrappers fight back, many happy clients, show substance, outline costs, answer any question.
I think that would have a huge positive impact on the market as it stands. The public may even learn something and with education maybe, just maybe, they won’t be taken for a ride by the crooked wrappers out there.
Who knows, maybe Steve would like to get behind this, even offer some free advice, get the wrappers association back on track if it is every going to get off the ground.
Jenman will naturally reply with the hype, but just come back just as strong. He will produce one or two unhappy clients, we can return with many happy clients or even question his choice and find out what it is that didn’t satisfy or help them.
Byronent
Adelaide SAI have been onto this for a few days already. Most of the current affairs shows are very much like Jenman. They like the doom and gloom!
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage Adviser
http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter – Click Here
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty LtdWhy not pitch as challenging an industry spokesmen.
They won’t let it go to another channel.
It will also guarantee they do a follow up with doom and gloom from Jenman himself in his fancy suits
Byronent
Adelaide SAMisconceived ill-reported and libellous articles, like the SMH one appears to be, used to put politician’s children through private schools or a nice tennis court out the back. I hope those who’s reputations have been damaged by these “stories” take legal action to ensure that you can’t just ignore the truth to pillory an individual.
______________________
I know I can, I know I can
I think the media are just amazing. It was only a couple of years ago that ACA called Steve “Melbournes Housing Hero”.
Fast forward to now and what he was doing then has now become villainous.Go figure.
I was just thinking…
Steve is a qualified Accountant.
Does Jenman hold any qualifications?
Robert Bou-Hamdan
Mortgage Adviser
http://www.mortgagepackaging.com.auFREE Finance-Related Newsletter – Click Here
Comments made are of a general nature and should not be construed as individual advice.
© 2004 Mortgage Packaging Pty LtdHi Rob,
I think it is nice of you to stick up for the Wrappers, as there are some very reputable ones especially among the forumites here, Pelican being one of many that I have communicated with and whom could not imagine anything “shady” ever going down. Hence it is sad to see some good people trashed by ill-informed media hungry characters.
Nonetheless, I think the Steve McKnight vs Neil Jenman qualification heavy weight title really should be best left in the closet, as IMO it really bears no merit in this playing field.
Aside from all this, I think it would be wise to just keep an open mind.
BTW I am not into wrapping, but like so many have said, it has its place and I’m sure there are “good” and “bad” wrappers, as no doubt there are wrappees, and without doubt….misguided media reporters!!!
Cheers,
Jo
Originally posted by grae1:“The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents and the oceans, was not ignorance, it was the illusion of knowledge.”
– Daniel BoorstinHi Grae1
Congratulations on putting one of the most uplifting, inspiring quotes I’ve seen in a long time in as your signature.
I think we could do worst than leaving the last word on this topic to the said Daniel Boorstein:
“The greatest obstacle to discovering the shape of the earth, the continents and the oceans, was not ignorance, it was the illusion of knowledge.”
– Daniel BoorstinMr Jenman et al should take note. Awesome!!
Cheers
Greg
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