I’m aware that if I own a property with asbestos roofing, or asbestos panels (the older “fibro” sheeting), and I want to renovate, there are strict council regulations about DISPOSING of the asbestos. I respect the need for such care.
However, if I just want to leave the asbestos where it is:
1. Does anyone know about any current state or federal laws which will force me to replace it?
2. If I simply put tenants in my newly purchased properties, and leave the asbestos roofing/wall panels exactly the way I bought them (ie., newly painted by the vendor) are my tenants able to sue me a few years down the track if they get asbestos poisoning? [angry2]It’s hard to get a +CF non-brick property in Australia which has no asbestos, as most are more than 20, 30 or 40 years old. I’m looking in regional Qld and WA, but I believe the problem exists in NZ or anywhere else for that matter.
Cheers
Greg FHey Greg,
Mate I am in the same boat, I am looking at a house currently with asbestos lined interior walls. As far as I am aware (in QLD anyways) there are no building regulations that require you to replace asbestos. There are however regulations in the code that require you to wear protective (long sleeved shits/pants/breathing mask) clothing when either sanding, cutting or replacing asbestos materials.
Also if it is a weatherboard house and has asbestos sheeting (most houses prior to 1981) it may also have a lead painted exterior. That gets messy with having to inclose the area to which you will be stripping the paint off and then disposing of waste at an approved council dump and paying hazadous waste disposal fees [eh].
I would make a quick call to a building surveyor and they should be able to advise you over the phone. I am lucky as my father is one.
Of course i explained all this when i made my offer[thumbsupanim]
As for the legal impications down the track? The tenants shouldn’t be messing with the walls so the fibres shouldn’t become airbourne. So I doubt there should be any legal implications, just explain that to the tenants and i would imagine there shouldn’t be any problems, but then again I am not a lawyer.
G’day Greg,
I am currently renovating an older house in Logan City which has asbestos walls and roofing.As far as i am aware there are no regulations which say the asbestos has to be replaced. If the walls are painted, have no holes or are not cut, drilled or sanded they are perfectly safe. A tenant could only be exposed to the asbestos if they are doing any of the above to the walls, which they shouldn’t be doing anyway. Even if they did suffer from asbestos poisoning years from now, how can they prove it came from your property, asbestos was in brake linings and clutches of cars for years as well as many other applications.Common sense has to prevail where asbestos is concerned and the correct procedures carried out for working with and disposing of it.
FostonLife is a series of new beginnings
Originally posted by Silver:Hey Greg, …As far as I am aware (in QLD anyways) there are no building regulations that require you to replace asbestos. There are however regulations in the code that require you to wear protective (long sleeved shits/pants/ breathing mask) clothing when either sanding, cutting or replacing asbestos materials.
Thanks Silver and Foston for your helpful input
And Silver: Sorry mate, I can’t pass up the opportunity of teasing you about your “long sleeved shits” typo. I had some dealings with a short-sleeved shit on a building site once. He was a real mongrel. Who are these long-sleeved shits you mention? Lawyers who come after landlords with asbestososis claims? [party][xmas]
I just noticed under my post there’s a Google advert re “Asbestos law”. I clicked, and found some useful definitions etc, but most (all?) of it is US law. I found a couple of useful definitions, however, plus the following summary:
“Asbestos products liability lawsuits have arisen most often from two situations: 1) claims brought against suppliers of raw asbestos fiber, where employees of manufacturers of asbestos products actually or allegedly had contracted asbestos-related diseases as a result of exposure to asbestos supplied to the manufacturer, and 2) claims against manufacturers of products brought where insulators and other asbestos workers allegedly or actually had contracted asbestos-related diseases as a result of exposure to the manufactured products. Exposure to asbestos can cause Mesothelioma, a rare form of cancer, and Asbestosis, a non-cancerous scarring of the lungs by asbestos fibers. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulates the general public’s exposure to asbestos in buildings, drinking water and the environment.
Interesting sites:
http://asbestos-law.bloodhoundnetwork.com/asbestos-law.htmStill nothing specific re asbestos legislation /case law etc specific to Oz/NZ
Have we got any lawyers on this forum who can help out?
Cheers
Greg FStill nothing specific re asbestos legislation /case law etc specific to Oz/NZ
Have we got any lawyers on this forum who can help out?
[/quote]C’mon guys, are all the lawyers on holidays or something? Anyone would think it was the weekend![biggrin]
Seriously though, my son’s given me what I think is the best advice so far, but we need professional help to see whether his strategy stacks up. He suggests I could mention the asbestos in all my lease documents from the time I take over as the new owner, so the tenants could never say they were unaware. If I was to get a carefully worded paragraph/condition in the lease which forebad the tenant from doing any maintenance, painting, etc on the fibro roof, walls, ceilings, would that make my position watertight, or at least stronger? If so, has anyone got some suggested wording?
Apparently, asbestosis can only be caught from airborne particles, and if the tenants don’t go putting holes in the walls, or tearing walls down, or scraping off paint/sanding back paint WITHOUT MY EXPRESS, WRITTEN PERMISSION, then they are in breach of their lease. My son THINKS (and this is the operative word) that a carefully worded paragraph in the lease documents might be enough to cover my backside as a paranoid landlord.[fear]
Again, we’re hanging out for someone with legal knowledge specific to Oz/NZ to steer us in the right direction, or perhaps a RE agent or property manager who has had some experience of this problem. Can anyone help us out?
Cheers
GregHeres how the situation works, if your tennant contracts emphizema they make a claim aginst the manufacturers. There are special funds set up to pay this liability (one particular fund has recently been in the news for not havingenough asses to cover long term liabilities (10-15 yrs out). They do not claim aginst you unless you have ripped up and told them it is safe (and don’t worry about the dust!).
From memory there are paints which have a stong bonding agent, I would suggest acouple of coats of those (I don’t actually own any asbestos houses, but it’s what I would do.
I also would do what your son suggests.
In the end it comes down to a duty of care – did you take all resonable steps to ensure that the asbestos fibers become lose. All that means is just have to have a good think about it and take any steps to minimise damage.
Rgds.
Lucifer_auOriginally posted by Lucifer_au:Heres how the situation works, if your tennant contracts emphizema they make a claim aginst the manufacturers. There are special funds set up to pay this liability (one particular fund has recently been in the news for not havingenough asses to cover long term liabilities (10-15 yrs out). They do not claim aginst you unless you have ripped up and told them it is safe (and don’t worry about the dust!). From memory there are paints which have a stong bonding agent, I would suggest acouple of coats of those (I don’t actually own any asbestos houses, but it’s what I would do. I also would do what your son suggests.
In the end it comes down to a duty of care – did you take all resonable steps to ensure that the asbestos fibers become lose. All that means is just have to have a good think about it and take any steps to minimise damage.
Rgds. jackw_au (aka Lucifer_au)Hi Lucifer
And thank you SO MUCH. Clarity at last! [biggrin]
I figured it had to do with duty of care. Two thoughts:
1. To demonstrate my duty of care, when I get the the Building Inspection report (because I have been forewarned that asbestos exists), I will put in writing that I expect the Building Inspector to make specific written recommendations about the condition of the asbestos sheeting, and what specific steps I need to make, plus the timeframe it can safely be left in its present condition. (I will, of course, keep my letter plus the report, plus the actions I took on the report, plus all receipts, on file just in case)2. Is there a professional body that Building Inspectors have to belong to? If someone has a name etc, I’ll ring them and post their comments on the forum.
3. Has anyone got suggested wording of the specific clauses I would put in my leases? Again, there must be real estate agents out there who’ve dealt with this before.
Cheers
Greg F
just a quick note – I work at the university of RMIT and there currently, cleaning out all the asbestos. A student was found inside the lab during the cleaning and they immediately sent him to the hospital for a $2000 check-up. The head of security explained to me this morning that if someone breaths it in, they can die within 10 years so RMIT didn’t want to get sued and I don’t think you would want to get sued aswell.
Kind Regards,
George.“If You never never ask, you’ll never never know”
Originally posted by geo:just a quick note – I work at the university of RMIT and there currently, cleaning out all the asbestos. A student was found inside the lab during the cleaning and they immediately sent him to the hospital for a $2000 check-up. The head of security explained to me this morning that if someone breaths it in, they can die within 10 years so RMIT didn’t want to get sued and I don’t think you would want to get sued aswell.
Kind Regards,
George.Hi Geo
Scary stuff. I assume you’re saying that if the asbestos is DISTURBED whilst your employer is REMOVING it, and it is proven that RMIT did not take adequate precautions (ie., letting the student into the laboratory), they can be sued.
I think this is fair enough.
But Geo, do you have any info re what happens if I don’t disturb the asbestos, maybe just paint it while the tenant’s inside?
Or should I pay for the tenants to spend a week in a motel at my expense whilst the painting is happening?
And keep all the receipts as proof of the precautions I took?
Cheers
Greg
The answwer is a question
Do you want to go to prison?
you’ve heard it b4 – ‘better be safe than sorry. You see – if you don’t remove it but paint over it, in time, the tenants will breath it in through the walls and it is mose effective in an air-conditioner so my advice is to spenda few thousand dollars getting rid of it the right way and take all precautions.
Kind Regards,
George.“If You never never ask, you’ll never never know”
If we were to eliminate the asbestos on all these properties we would have another building boom.There are literally thousands of state built homes from the 50,s onwards that were built from asbestos.The government still owns a great deal of these homes but I dont see anything being said about the dangers to their tenants.
If someone is able to sue a landlord because they lived in an asbestos residence then the government would be in very big trouble.
Russ.All true, but I did notice on my latest landlords insurance policy (from Rentcover) that it states “Asbestos New Exclusion – We do not insure you or your family against any liability to pay compensation for Personal Injury or Property damage casued by or arising directly or indirectly out of or in connection with the actual or alleged use or presence of Asbestos”.
So, if the insurance companies aren’t covering us then perhaps we need to word something exactly like that in our leases to cover ourselves as well.
PK
I have an IP in Sydney that is brick veneer, no asbestos, but has a detached brick garage that has an asbestos roof.
The tenants have been living in that property from before I bought it some 10 years now, always been good tenants.
The RE agent went for a recent inspection and sent a (once again) new PM. This chick noted on the checklist “Asbestos roofing is dangerous, needs replacing”.
Needles to say that I was on the phone with the owner the next day blasting him about what qualifications has this girl to establish that the roof is dangerous and to give the tenant a paper containing such statement.
They recovered the checklist but I am still uneasy about the whole thing.
Will probably replace the garage roof since it is not a big deal of money, but will in fact endanger the tenants by replacing it not by living it there.May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcOriginally posted by RussH:If we were to eliminate the asbestos on all these properties we would have another building boom.There are literally thousands of state built homes from the 50,s onwards that were built from asbestos.The government still owns a great deal of these homes but I dont see anything being said about the dangers to their tenants.
If someone is able to sue a landlord because they lived in an asbestos residence then the government would be in very big trouble.
Russ.Hi Russ
I wonder if anyone has any statistics re Homes West or other State Government Housing Commissions SELLING OFF their cheap, asbestos-roofed/walled at BARGAIN BASEMENT PRICES?
DO STATE GOVERNMENTS HAVE A DE FACTO, UNDISCLOSED POLICY TO QUIETLY, “SOFTLY SOFTLY” OFFLOAD THEIR “PROBLEM” HOUSING COMMISSION PROPERTIES, and then 5-10 years down the track pass legislation requiring owners (people like us) to do the expensive renovations? A sneaky way to offload their $ financial responsibilities $ to taxpayers?
I work as a teacher for Education Qld, and for the past 10 years or so the Qld government has been required by law to replace all the “dangerous” roofs on their state schools.
It’s been a horrendously expensive exercise for state governments, so I suspect they may see that selling off their asbestos-ridden properties is the smartest way they can go.
Greg F
Hi all,
I have worked in many asbestos ridden workplaces and have an interest in this as such.Your local council will have a booklet or guide with requirements for removing/disturbing asbestos. Ring them. Don’t rely on convincing opinions posted on this site that come across as facts when they are not.
I have also heard that there is more asbestos in Burke Street , Melbourne than most asbestos ridden factories. (brakes still have asbestos)
Be aware there are different types (friable/non friable) of asbestos that are considered to have varying degrees of danger.
An interesting urban myth to note also, back in the day when grinding asbestos willy nilly was ok, the bloke working with it and inhaling heaps lived for many years without ever having a problem. But his wife who may have only washed his overalls once ever, would contract full blown asbestosis.
Make sure you have any asbestos removed by asbestos qualified removers. These guys aren’t cheap, but neither is a lawsuit for blatant negligence.
It is your duty of care as a landlord to know local council asbestos requirements.
[daisy]
lifexperience
Originally posted by lifeX:Hi all,
I have worked in many asbestos ridden workplaces and have an interest in this as such.
Your local council will have a booklet or guide with requirements for removing/disturbing asbestos. Ring them. Don’t rely on convincing opinions posted on this site that come across as facts when they are not. I have also heard that there is more asbestos in Burke Street, Melbourne than most asbestos ridden factories. (brakes still have asbestos) Be aware there are different types (friable/non friable) of asbestos that are considered to have varying degrees of danger.An interesting urban myth to note also, back in the day when grinding asbestos willy nilly was ok, the bloke working with it and inhaling heaps lived for many years without ever having a problem. But his wife who may have only washed his overalls once ever, would contract full blown asbestosis. Make sure you have asbestos removed by asbestos qualified removers. These guys aren’t cheap, but neither is a lawsuit for blatant negligence. It is your duty of care as a landlord to know local council asbestos requirements.
lifexperienceHi Life Experience
LOVE your codename!!! Your post proves you’ve “been there, done that”. Great advice.
Do you think my conspiracy theory re state govts offloading their stock of asbestos buildings to unwary investors stacks up, or am I just paranoid?
I know the difference between Proof and Hypothesis, and I loved your comment:“Don’t rely on convincing opinions posted on this site that come across as facts when they are not.”
At present there are no laws that I know of requiring me to remove asbestos roofing sheets (which are still in pretty good nick, by the way) or internal/external fibro wall panels. I’m just wary/concerned about:
1. Future changes to laws
2. Future lawsuitsI suspect you have a lot more wisdom/knowledge to offer, [buz2] and I’m just trying to tease it out of you [grad]
Do you or any other readers know a good Aussie lawyer with expertise in this area?
Cheers
Greg FLifeX
Mechanic friends brother got asbestosis from ‘blowing dust’ off break pads for years, now he makes apprentices use water.
If asbestosis is problem, Y not fibreglass too ???
Y
http://thewest.com.au/20040529/news/general/tw-news-general-home-sto125751.html
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcMarc1,
I couldn’t access your link, maybe just my computer.In a booklet i have by the dept. human services vic, 2001. This is who to contact in Victoria, anyone have details for other states?:
Local Council, Environmental Health Officer
Dept. of Human Services(Environmental Health Unit) (03) 96374156 0r http://www.dhs.vic.gov.au/phd/environmental
Environmental Protection Authority for asbestos disposal (03) 96952722 http://www.epa.vic.gov.au
Worksafe Victoria 1800 136089 for list of LICENSED asbestos removalists http://www.workcover.vic.gov.au
National Association of Testing Authorities to identify the asbestos you have (03) 9329 1633 http://www.nata.asn.au
The gist of the matter is that if your asbestos is not in a deteriorating condition or being disturbed, you probably aren’t legally required to do anything.
Of course none of the authorities will put themselves on the line legally with their recomendations (which are based on current knowledge) because asbestos is such an unknown quantity.
I would suggest that if you check with authorities and follow all recommendations, you are fulfilling your responsibilities as a landlord.
Greg, As far as the future goes, who knows?
Y, apparently the body can remove fibreglass fibres from your lungs, But the body cant remove some asbestos fibres. In theory just 1 minute asbestos fibre at any time in your life might cause life threatening problems….scary huh.
Of course in 20 years they might discover fibreglassosis as a new disease. Only time will tell with any new products. Remember when DDT was recomended as a body deoderant back in the day.
[angel]
lifexperience
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. If you don't have an account, you can register here.
