All Topics / Heads Up! / Oz Scams make headlines in the UK

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  • Profile photo of Rebecca1Rebecca1
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    Dear All

    I thought you’d be interested to know that Aussie property scams are making headlines in the papers in the UK. Below is an article from today’s Guardian newspaper.

    Cheers

    Bec

    Why prices have become wizened in Oz
    The long property boom in Australia is at an end and the blame is being heaped on one man’s shoulders: Henry Kaye, the man who promised to make multi-millionaires of investors in just three years. Patrick Collinson reports
    Patrick Collinson
    Saturday December 20, 2003
    The Guardian

    Property prices in the once-booming Australian market are stagnating and critics are blaming the collapse of an extraordinary “millionaire” investment seminar business – with disturbing implications for the UK.

    The name Henry Kaye is now familiar to almost everyone in Australia. Mr Kaye built a business empire of roughly 130 companies on charisma, showmanship and the promise that everyone can become a property millionaire.

    More than 100,000 Australians were lured by newspaper ads to introductory seminars which promised you could “retire a multi-millionaire in less than three years.” Mr Kaye claimed he could teach the unsophisticated how to “buy property at 20% below the market every time” and “how to borrow… with no personal liability and no personal risk.”

    Today Mr Kaye’s empire is in ruins. Many of his customers, persuaded to pay for ever more expensive seminars and buy “discounted” properties, have lost much of their savings.
    Losses at his failed business empire have mounted to more than A$80m (£34m) and the Australian Securities and Investments Commission has asked the Federal Court to confiscate Mr Kaye’s passport over fears he may seek refuge overseas.
    Meanwhile, the off-plan and buy-to-let properties that his victims invested in are now being dumped, sparking widespread price falls. The Australian newspaper reported last week that prices in Sydney and Melbourne – Mr Kaye’s base – have already fallen by 12%-15% and that the “collapse of property spruiker [salesman] Henry Kaye could accelerate the downturn, as investors with more than one property dump apartments on an already soft market.”

    Could it happen in Britain? The parallels between Britain and Australia are ominous: Like Britain, Australia has experienced a raging house price boom since 1997. Like Britain, Australia has also experienced a huge surge in “buy to let” property investing, with 40% of purchases down under made by investors. The flood of investment properties has sent rents tumbling, such that rental yields have fallen to only 1% in Sydney.

    But what marks out the Australian experience is the extraordinary impact of property investment seminars. These advertised extensively across Australian media, capturing the attention of wannabe speculators in what has already gone down in history as the country’s most frenetic ever property boom.

    It is a trend that has now hit Britain. In recent months national and regional British newspapers have been deluged with “millionaire” adverts promising an easy path to property riches.
    The similarity between the advertising and promotional material used in Australia is striking.

    Warren Borsje was raised in Australia and today (according to his website) has homes in Melbourne, Monte Carlo and London as well as investment properties, share portfolios and businesses in Australia, New Zealand and Europe.
    At London seminars this year he has attracted attendances of 500 or more, where he has encouraged people to buy rental properties. In total, around 20,000-30,000 have attended his free seminars, all in London, although many fewer have paid for the full £1,980 weekend seminar.
    But while there are similarities between the marketing methods used by Mr Kaye and Mr Borsje, the methods they use are very different. Unlike Mr Borsje, Mr Kaye encouraged attendees to buy his “discounted” properties, with the aid of finance facilities and mortgages. In contrast, the Borsje courses are purely educational, according to a spokeswoman, who added that the company has now switched to distance learning and no longer runs hotel-based seminars. She said that Mr Borsje (who was out of the country when Jobs & Money tried to contact him) has no connections with Mr Kaye.

    But elsewhere the property investment seminar business continues to expand in the UK, with new ads and new operators appearing weekly. What’s more, the popularity of the BBC’s Million Pound Property Experiment series, presented by Justin Ryan and Colin Mc Callister, has prompted a new wave of adverts. All you have to do is turn up at a free seminar. But usually the only person certain to become a millionaire is the presenter of the seminars. Attendees are frequently subjected to a hard sell to cough up thousands for a series of “in-depth” courses.

    In Mr Kaye’s seminars, thousands of Australians paid A$15,000-A$50,000 each (£6,000-£21,000) to attend his courses. Mr Kaye picked up staggering sums for these seminars – according to documents issued by Mr Kaye when he was trying to attract investors to buy into his companies, he made A$67m (£28m) in seminar fees alone in his last financial year.

    In Britain, course fees for property investment seminars are lower, but with around 100-200 people typically attending a weekend course, it’s possible for the seminar presenter to pick up £500,000.

    In Australia, what marked out Mr Kaye was how he is alleged to have made money not just from the seminars but also from behind-the-scenes deals with property developers.

    According to Alan Kohler, finance presenter on ABC News, Australia’s main network television channel, Mr Kaye was a charismatic 30-something of Russian-Australian parentage who promised to help ordinary people to get rich quickly. But the ordinary punters were unaware of the smoke-and-mirrors Mr Kaye used to offer “discounts” on property.

    According to Mr Kohler, it worked like this. Mr Kaye would agree with a developer to provide buyers for units at a certain price – say A$300,000 each. Rent on a unit worth that much would normally be around A$250 a week, but Mr Kaye provides a rental guarantee at A$350 a week for five years, which supports a sworn valuation at A$440,000.

    He then appears at a seminar offering to sell new units at a 10% discount. Gross profit per unit for Mr Kaye is A$100,000. The rental guarantee costs him A$25,000 (A$350 a week minus A$250 over five years), so net profit is A$75,000 per unit.
    However, schemes like this only work until the naïve buyers try to sell on their properties – and find that the initial “discount” was in fact an over-valuation.

    Mr Kaye’s customers are now hoping to launch what will be one of the biggest class action lawsuits seen in Australian history. Australia’s corporate regulator has already taken Mr Kaye to the Australian Federal Court to seek the return of millions of dollars to investors.

    The Australian Securities and Investments Commission has also lodged an application in the court seeking a receiver to take charge of Mr Kaye’s assets and those of one of his companies, Property Corporate Services. Two of Mr Kaye’s other companies, National Investment Institute and Empower Group were put in receivership late last month.

    One of Australia’s most vigorous consumer advocates, Neil Jenman spoke to Jobs & Money specifically about the Australian experience. He said: “It is easy to think that people attracted to get-rich-quackers were greedy or gullible. This overlooks the fact that to charge thousands based on deceitful claims is fraud.”

    In the UK, property investment seminars are legal, and because they do not constitute advice under the Financial Services Act, do not come under the supervision of the Financial Services Authority.

    Mr Jenman is campaigning for a tightening of Australian rules, and says UK regulators should take a close look at the experience down under to prevent something similar happening closer to home.

    Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003

    Profile photo of diclemdiclem
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    Hi Rebecca,
    It’s always interesting to read how Australia is portrayed to the rest of the world. Thanks for the article, a good read.
    I did have to laugh when I saw that Neil Jenman managed to get his “two bobs’ worth in.
    Cheers,
    Sue [:)]

    “Be careful not to step on the flowers when you’re reaching for the stars”

    Profile photo of Rebecca1Rebecca1
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    Dear Sue

    I am not sure what you mean about laughing because Jenman is in the story? It is my understanding that Jenman has done a lot to not only stop Henry Kaye but also to help Henry’s victims. And, it seems that he has done all this at great personal and professional risk to himself.

    So, what’s funny about it when journalists quote him?

    Bec

    Profile photo of wayneLwayneL
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    Hey Bec,

    Relax a bit[:D] It’s just that our MR Jenman has become a ubiquitous figure in the R/E game over here. It is well known that, whilst he generally does do an excellent job with his consumer advocacy, The more cynical amongst us have noted that he has a vested interest in discrediting all and sundry, except of course his own client agencies.

    I thought one with such a healthy cynicism as yourself would understand that[;)]

    I couldn’t help breaking into a wry grin myself[:D]

    Cheers
    Wayne

    http://www.tradingforaliving.info

    Profile photo of Rebecca1Rebecca1
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    Thanks for that, Wayne.

    Oh sure, I don’t mind a bit of cynicism – as you know, I am partial to it myself.

    However, I think you’re on the wrong path with Jenman’s motives. If you look at his web site, I am sure he says that some of the worst agents are those who have claimed to have done his ethics courses.

    Also, I saw a post from the wrapper, Mr Otton, where Jenman lost lots of his members. The reason was because he insisted on upholding some pretty tough ethical standards. I read the codes on his web site and I must tell you, they’re pretty good.

    I get his newsletter and it is not possible to write the way he does without being genuine.

    Wayne, there are so many shonks out there, that when someone takes them on at great personal cost, I think some of us need to realise that there is a time for sniping and a time for praising.

    If you ever get caught, I bet Jenman will be there to help you – no matter what it costs him. But perhaps you’re too smart to get caught. I know I’m not.

    Anyway, these are just my thoughts. I don’t want to sound like an ad for Jenman, but just an ad for what’s rare in the world today and what needs to be encouraged – sticking up for our fellow humans when things go wrong for them.

    Aw, now I feel like crying.

    Cheers

    Bec

    Profile photo of diclemdiclem
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    Dear Rebecca,
    I think wayne explained my viewpoint better than I could have, thanks wayne [:)]
    In Oz, Jenman is everywhere. If there is a real estate story on TV you can bet there’ll be a Jenman interview (Especially if wraps are involved), I guess they know he will have an opposing view. Newspaper articles are basically the same.
    Hence my quote
    “I did have to laugh when I saw that Neil Jenman managed to get his “two bobs’ worth in.”
    Cheers,
    Sue [:)]

    “Be careful not to step on the flowers when you’re reaching for the stars”

    Profile photo of Steve McKnightSteve McKnight
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    Hi,

    I think that the claim:

    quote:


    The long property boom in Australia is at an end and the blame is being heaped on one man’s shoulders: Henry Kaye…


    is about as accurate as:

    quote:


    ABC News, Australia’s main network television channel


    *sigh*

    Apart from Alan Kohler insights, the rest of the article is hype and lacking in substance.

    Where is the discussion about investors being able to equip themselves to learn from the mistakes of others rather than namecalling and fingerpointing?

    To say that Henry Kaye was responible for the boom or the possible bust is one dimensional and shows a lack of understanding about how markets actually work.

    Thanks for the heads up Rebecca… interesting to read what’s in the press OS.

    Merry Xmas,

    Steve McKnight

    **********
    Remember that success comes from doing things differently.
    **********

    Steve McKnight | PropertyInvesting.com Pty Ltd | CEO
    https://www.propertyinvesting.com

    Success comes from doing things differently

    Profile photo of wayneLwayneL
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    Hi again Bec,

    >>But perhaps you’re too smart to get caught.<<

    Nope[:(] Far too trusting I am. All part of lifes lessons![xx(]

    >>Anyway, these are just my thoughts. I don’t want to sound like an ad for Jenman, but just an ad for what’s rare in the world today and what needs to be encouraged – sticking up for our fellow humans when things go wrong for them.

    Aw, now I feel like crying.<<

    Well you are a softy aren’t you[:)] Yes, I agree with your statement above.

    There are times when people need to learn their lessons the hard way. I wish my lessons hadn’t happened, but I wouldn’t change it if I could,
    ’cause I’ve definately come out of it a lot wiser. So at least I have gained some benefit.

    But, there are situations that are just unfair and need a knight in shining armour. If Jenman is truly genuine in this regard (he probably is) then godspeed to him.

    Wayne

    http://www.tradingforaliving.info

    Profile photo of kay henrykay henry
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    Well, as an Aussie myself, I am not sure that wayne and diclem speak for every aussie in their perspectives on Jenman. Just like the head of the ACCC, Samuels, is generally brought in to speak about unethical business dealings, so Jenman gets to speak about RE ethics- it is kind of his specialty after all…

    Jenman is not an object of derision universally. The authors speak not for all aussies- but for themselves- just like I do.

    kay henry

    Profile photo of Rebecca1Rebecca1
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    I thank you for your replies. I am aware of Jenman and it seems that his critics are mostly those tied to practices he opposes. I have a very strong feeling that he is genuine. In fact, I’d bet the house on it, I really would.

    We need more people to stand up and speak out. I think they should be encouraged.

    Cheers

    Bec

    Profile photo of wayneLwayneL
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    Hi Kay,

    >>I am not sure that wayne and diclem speak for every aussie in their perspectives on Jenman.<<

    Well of course not!!

    I must say that despite the emoticons on forums such as these, it is sometimes difficult to get across the spirit of the words one is typing. I don’t believe Sue was attempting to deride Jenman when she said she had a laugh. I certainly wasn’t when I spoke of breaking into a wry grin.

    From my own perspective, the guy is like a pit bull. His tenacity is something to be admired. Can not my, or anybody elses reaction to this result in a smile…or a giggle. Of course not.

    This is not derision, Kay, OK!

    >>Just like the head of the ACCC, Samuels, is generally brought in to speak about unethical business dealings, so Jenman gets to speak about RE ethics- it is kind of his specialty after all… <<

    Samuels is a civil servant, employed by the federal government and is (or should be) entirely impartial. Jenman is a businessman who derives his income from his client real estate agencies.

    So we can agree wholeheartedly with the brad thrust of his message, but we must maintain a healthy measure of incertitude and examine each comment for signs of self interest.

    Cynical maybe, but in these times one must be vigilant.

    Wayne

    http://www.tradingforaliving.info

    Profile photo of Rebecca1Rebecca1
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    I didn’t really think you were deriding him, just being a tad cynical about his motives.

    But, let’s face it, we all have to get paid somehow. There is a big difference between being paid and being bought.

    From what I can discern, he cannot be bought. I think he has proved that, many times, and therefore he (perhaps) deserves a little less cynicism than he may have once attracted.

    The way I read it, if he wasn’t legit, he would not have had such a long run.

    I read a story about how Henry Kaye put a private detective agency on to him – followed him for months and dug back 30 years into his past – right back to his school days. They didn’t find a thing to pin on him.

    How many of us would come up clean if someone dug into our past or followed us around for a few months.

    The thought of it is enough to give me the creeps.

    Be careful.

    Bec

    Profile photo of wayneLwayneL
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    Profile photo of redwingredwing
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    That’s the thing isn’t it..

    I read a story about how Henry Kaye put a private detective agency on to him – followed him for months and dug back 30 years into his past – right back to his school days. They didn’t find a thing to pin on him.

    How many of us would come up clean if someone dug into our past or followed us around for a few months.

    ” I plead the fifth your honor” [}:)]

    Once you’re in the public spotlight you’re ‘fair game’ for all, the media, your opposition and your industry..

    Jenman’s put himself in a tough spot, especially being so critical of the industries ‘dodgy’ practices.. good on him..

    we’re a ‘more educated’ public Hmmm hang on , how about “henry”, oh well as Noel Whittaker put it, “if it looks to good to be true..”

    MERRY CHRISTMAS & A DUE DILLIGENCE NEW YEAR

    REDWING

    “The man that thinks at 5o as he did when he was 20 has wasted 30 years of his life”

    Profile photo of kay henrykay henry
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    Yes, watchdogs and whistleblowers aren’t particularly popular people during the time they’re trying to expose dodgy stuff. it’s only after the guru has fallen that they get the credit. I’m thinking about those nurses who explored the snuff culture at a major hospital recently.

    frankly, i am not sure any person’s *life* should be up for public scrutiny- whether they are in the public eye or not. I think their business practices and ideologies they base them on should be open for critique- but not their private lives- which probably have buggar all to do with their business practices.

    One thing i’ve often found is that when people can’t base their arguments upon logic, they often try to criticise the person- not their ideas. So A is critical of the ethics of B’s practices. B then acts in a personally scathing way towards A and tries to discredit him or her. That never really made sense to me. People often do that with Jenman, which i find a bit weird.

    kay henry

    Profile photo of JacktarJacktar
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    Bec,

    I am one fool who wishes he had of investigated more into the NII sager before signing on the dotted line.
    I returned from the Gulf War in August of this year and joined up with NII, Henry Kaye’s company to learn about property investing as I am an absolute novice to this field. Later to find after spending $15000 of my hard earned money from spending 6 months in the Gulf as Service for my country to have it ripped off by someone for which I went to the War for, our own Australians.
    It upsets me greatly to think that my time over there has all been wasted by this one person who thought that he could take my $15000 and then his company to go into receivership with a chance I will never see that money again.
    This has now put any investing for me on hold until I can get rid of this bad debt. It has even made me think twice about getting into this industry because of scammers like Henry Kaye that are out there.
    These are my thoughts on the subject and they are quite heart felt as my financial situation is fairly critical as a result of my stupidity. If anyone else has fallen victim to the Wrath of Kaye, I would be more than happy to talk with you about anything!

    P.S. This is my first post as a new member, Hi everyone!

    Scotty

    Profile photo of Rebecca1Rebecca1
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    Hi Scotty

    I am so sorry to hear what happened to you.

    Why don’t you contact Jenman and see what advice or help he can give you? Just go to google and type in “Jenman Kaye” and you’ll get plenty of info on what has been happening. It’s not over, by the looks of it.

    Merry Christmas – may 2004 be better for you.

    Bec

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    Thanks Bec, I am taking on all the information I can get at the moment. I will have a surf and see what I come up with.

    Thanks again and Merry Christmas

    Scotty

    [:)]

    Profile photo of Elysium-MElysium-M
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    Interesting how they mentioned Warren Borsje. I went to his $30 conference a few years ago. The first flashy property investing seminar I’d ever been to. I was so impressed I signed up for the expensive weekend conference, paying by instalments. I couldn’t go to the conference because of work, and called them up to cancel. They said sure, we’ll even refund your deposit and your first instalment which you’ve already paid (around $800).

    To cut a long story short, a few months, several letters, many telephone calls and unreturned messages later, still no refund. Got a big law firm to send them a strong letter, and I got my money back in a week!

    Others might have had a different experience with him, but after all that pain, I’m glad I didn’t go to the conference.

    Cheers
    Elysium-M

    Profile photo of manofactionmanofaction
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    Hi guys,

    Seeing as you’re all chatting about Uncle Neil J, here’s something you might find amusing… well I have anyway.

    Yesterday I was banned from one of his “accredited offices!

    Seems to me they just didn’t like the fact that I wouldn’t submit a “plain vanilla” offer – the main concern was that I wouldn’t put 20% deposit down with the offer.($40k)

    Anyway, I was told not to come back until I would put down at least 10% ( that’s 20k )… only then would they even consider putting in any conditions.

    Funny thing is it wasn’t so long ago I bought a house through that very the same office on $500 deposit.

    As somebody said “You haven’t made it until you get banned from a RE office!”

    Oh yeay, somebody mentioned about agents leaving NJ accreditted offices.

    Having spoken with many of the ex’s, it’s usually not becasue of the ethics issue but rather things like;
    a) stupity of the “no advertising” policy ( when in fact most do advertise but can’t admit it!!)
    b) the huge number of missed opportunites that go due to restrictive practices
    c) clear contradictions in the “ethics” policy that is rigidly enforced

    But heck, I love the guy (NJ) because he is so good at getting his noodle on TV and pushing his “no brainer” marketing.

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